Curse

freekedoutfish · Jan 04, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muk Utep

Then they should fix those particular quests, not compromise the balance of the rest of the game. Possibly even do a survey on which areas are abandoned due to people's inability to find a group (as opposed to the content simply being undesirable) and make a different system there. I personally doubt that ANet will do anything at all in this case, neither fix anything nor add the ability to use more heroes (although that's a possibility in the next chapter). If I had a choice though, I'd have the small amount of unbalanced content fixed rather than patch it up with something that would have a negative affect on the rest of the game.

Thats true and I appreciate your point. But if they were to choose to fix those kind of situations, then this is the only solution I see.

It would either be that, or provide alternative lvl20 henches in all those locations only available to titan fighters.

But Anet has stated they wont touch Prophercies anymore and/or make direct changes to old campaigns.

Allowing us to use 7 Heroes (isnt a perfect idea I admit) buts its a solution which is external to prophercies and would knock-on benefits in prophercies.

Plus if you consider that you cant have lvl20 heroes unless your lvl20 yourself, then it wouldnt give anyone access to AI more powerfull then they are.

Areas like that south of beacons wouldnt be anymore exploitable then it already is, unless it was a lvl20 from another continent.

But I see your point and I respect it.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 04, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Protect Denravi is the one u couldnt name freekedoutfish

And The Titan source is also a 4 man team quest in Asalcon /6 from Yaks.

SF is good example of where henchies become not particulally usful, sure they can fight but due the the high AL of enemys and the limited henchie builds it makes it considerably harder and next to impossible in same cases unless u exploit some means of helping urself out.

Defend North Kryta Province has to be one of the worst ones without heros Unless u PUG (which is next to impossible since people dont bother with the high end quests). With the Current set up u can only take 3 heros so u have to have 2 lvl 12 or so henchies that are pretty much Fodder, Even if u run from ToA with additional Henchies that are slighty higher level, there Still Titan Fodder, u need lvl 20s, especially one with Builds that are atleast semi good Vs titans.

gene terrodon · Jan 04, 2007, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

Only play with people you find in the area; if you can't find any, don't invite guild mates; if you don't find enough, don't invite guild mates, play with what you have.

I always find it hilarious that it is people in big, happy guilds saying they love playing with other people. I'm sure they do because they don't involve themselves in the general population at all.

What are you babbling about. It's hard to make any sense out of that babbling mess you call a statement.
Anyhow, I never said I had some huge guild, actually, we are quite small.
There are times when I get on and the guildies are either not on or in the middle of a planned run (FoW, DoA, Urgoz etc.). Instead of waiting, I would like to move on in the game with real players.

Mr_T_bot, if you were able to comprehend what you read, you would see that my general complaint is, since the introduction of Nightfall, that you cannot involve yourself with the general population, because the general population is running around with hench and heroes only. The only involvement with the community you can get at this time are inane, senseless discussions and arguments in places like LA, Kaineng or Kamadan.

No more LFG, no more populated mission outposts. None of that. The people you do find now act as if they are so leet, with their unoriginal wiki (guru) build. They exhibit very little patience, minimal skill and even less sense.

Jetdoc · Jan 04, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Discouraging PUGS and removing human interaction;

There would always be those in the game who choose to PUG. This means that you could still, always be able to find a human team if you chose to.

And there will always be missions which you simply need a human team to complete, due to it needing thinking power. And if you wish to do an entire game using PUGs, then people will always be there to do that.

And since we have the option anyway to use 7 henches for 95% of the each game, then how will being able to use 7 Heroes be any different? Its still AI.

But its not fair either to force us to ALWAYS use a human team in certain areas when Heroes can do it, especially in areas where the provided henches are not a high enough level.

The other fact is that we dont all, have hours on end to wait trying to create a party. Some of us want to get in, do a quest, and get out. We have other stuff to do with our time aswell as GWs.

Removing human interaction

That will never happen. The game is dependant on trading. We will always have human interaction and a need for the game to be online in order to do that. The game wont fall apart.

Okay, I've stayed out of this thread so far because we had a 20+ page thread debating this very subject earlier when Nightfall came out. However, there are a few points here that the above post fails to consider.

1. "People who want to PuG will still be able to PuG." I've heard this many times, but, as you acknowledge above... (a) with people using heroes, there are less and less people available to PuG and (b) because there are less people available, it is becoming increasingly harder to find PuGs. You even acknowledge that you "don't want to wait hours on end" to find a PuG. Doesn't that contradict your statement that "people who want to PuG will still be able to do so"?

2. "But they allow us to use 7 henchmen, why not 7 heroes?" It's simple - heroes, by all intents and purposes, are very powerful AI, as they are designed, equipped and skillsetted (is that a word?) by the player. At least with the current system there are limitations to the use of NPC's that actually encourages multiplayer gameplay in certain areas. If you don't believe that, ask yourself - why do I want 7 heroes anyways? It's because you want a further advantage in PvE that is currently not available. As many people have said, PvE is already pretty darn easy other than some very end game content. Why make it easier?

3. "Removing human interaction." The day that trading becomes the primary outlet for interaction in the game is the day that the game ceases to be a multiplayer game. Multiplayer interaction is meant, at it's core, to be players playing and experiencing the game with other players. Every step that improves the power and utility of the NPCs in the game takes us one step away from that multiplayer interaction.

Again, the debates in the other thread also focused around the poor quality of PuGs, the ever-expanding Guild Wars universe, and the impact of NPCs on the availability of PuGs. What I take exception to is blanket statements that basically say "Don't Tell Me How to Play the Game", when the requests those very players are making impact others in the game in a negative way.

Mr_T_bot · Jan 04, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

What are you babbling about. It's hard to make any sense out of that babbling mess you call a statement.
Anyhow, I never said I had some huge guild, actually, we are quite small.
There are times when I get on and the guildies are either not on or in the middle of a planned run (FoW, DoA, Urgoz etc.). Instead of waiting, I would like to move on in the game with real players.

Mr_T_bot, if you were able to comprehend what you read, you would see that my general complaint is, since the introduction of Nightfall, that you cannot involve yourself with the general population, because the general population is running around with hench and heroes only. The only involvement with the community you can get at this time are inane, senseless discussions and arguments in places like LA, Kaineng or Kamadan.

No more LFG, no more populated mission outposts. None of that. The people you do find now act as if they are so leet, with their unoriginal wiki (guru) build. They exhibit very little patience, minimal skill and even less sense.

Where the hell have you been? That has been the case for a year, sans heroes. People stuck with their guild for general areas like you. And those that didn't had no idea what they were doing, had friends, or used henchmen because other people sucked worse than the AI. Mission outposts havn't been populated since less than 2 months after game release, people have always acted leet, had minimal skill and patience. Maybe if you read what I said and came out of your little friend and guild bubble, you would see this.

Quote:

1. "People who want to PuG will still be able to PuG." I've heard this many times, but, as you acknowledge above... (a) with people using heroes, there are less and less people available to PuG and (b) because there are less people available, it is becoming increasingly harder to find PuGs. You even acknowledge that you "don't want to wait hours on end" to find a PuG. Doesn't that contradict your statement that "people who want to PuG will still be able to do so"?

Wrong, there are not less people available to PuG because you can only fill up half of an 8 man team with heroes. People are just asshats, like they have always been, and won't group with people who have heroes.

Quote:

as they are designed, equipped and skillsetted (is that a word?) by the player

Their skillset means nothing because Arena Net's AI can't handle alot of skills, much less skill combinations.

Quote:

If you don't believe that, ask yourself - why do I want 7 heroes anyways? It's because you want a further advantage in PvE that is currently not available.

Advantage? Advantage over what? The NPCs you would be fighting with henchmen anyway and who are designed to outnumber and outpower you? Maybe people want 7 heroes so they can actually advance in the game.

Jetdoc · Jan 04, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

Wrong, there are not less people available to PuG because you can only fill up half of an 8 man team with heroes. People are just asshats, like they have always been, and won't group with people who have heroes.

Their skillset means nothing because Arena Net's AI can't handle alot of skills, much less skill combinations.

Advantage? Advantage over what? The NPCs you would be fighting with henchmen anyway and who are designed to outnumber and outpower you? Maybe people want 7 heroes so they can actually advance in the game.

I definitely need help in interpreting all three of these posts.

1. What I am saying is that there are fewer people available to PuG because people are preferring to use heroes over real players. Are you saying that this isn't true?

2. Then why the clamoring for 7 heroes over 3? If the skillset doesn't matter, aren't they exactly the same as henchmen?

3. There are many, many, many people that have completed all three campaigns with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen. Are you saying that people can't advance in the game without 7 heroes?

By the way, "advantage" = having more power, ability, whatever you call it to be able to more easily defeat PvE enemies.

freekedoutfish · Jan 04, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

If you don't believe that, ask yourself - why do I want 7 heroes anyways? It's because you want a further advantage in PvE that is currently not available. As many people have said, PvE is already pretty darn easy other than some very end game content. Why make it easier?

Im with Mr T on this. What advantage in PvE am I trying to achieve with 7 Heroes?

Being the OP, i've already completed all 3 campaigns and I only have 5 quests left. All of which are end game quests.

I've also stated about 10 times now why I personally want a 7 heroe team. But your obviously not reading it or paying attention. It has nothing to do with wanting to make the game easier.

Im asking for a 7 heroe teams to fix a huge problem with Tyria and other campaigns.

A problem where quests are uncompletable because no PUGs exist to help and/or the Henche provided are not strong enough

I keep mentioning the Titan Quests as a perfect example. Do you know what the Titan quests are?

Their the last 5 quests given in Tyria, which you have to start from low level areas where the henches range from lvl6-15 and the party size ranges from 8-4.

The henches at all these locations are far too week to use and absolutely no one does them anymore. Which is strange considering the 110k experience you gain.

Explain to me how else to do those unless we're allowed to use a full set of Heroes?

It has nothing to do with making it easier, its about making it possible. I do appreciate though, that its not a perfect plan because it would give people advantages in other locations.

Im not denying that. Not anymore. But its the only way to resolve quests which you cant complete because no one does them.

And thats this thread completely ruined.

Mr_T_bot · Jan 04, 2007, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

1. What I am saying is that there are fewer people available to PuG because people are preferring to use heroes over real players. Are you saying that this isn't true?

Yes, I am. The number of people in an area dwindle a short while after a game is released. There are no fewer people to PuG than there would be because people either wouldn't play or would use henchmen anyway.

Quote:

2. Then why the clamoring for 7 heroes over 3? If the skillset doesn't matter, aren't they exactly the same as henchmen?

Because Heroes are outfittable and controllable and even though the AI can't handle a number of skills or skill combinations at all, you still pick their skills and attribute sets to complement what you are doing.

Quote:

3. There are many, many, many people that have completed all three campaigns with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen. Are you saying that people can't advance in the game without 7 heroes?

Are you being sardonic?

Sea Edge · Jan 04, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

There is few fine example while people prefer heroes/henchies over real people and run the game with turned off local and trade chat.

freekedoutfish · Jan 04, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Can you please not post those images.

I've reported three people for posting them because their completely un-related and pointless images on this thread.

daraaksii · Jan 04, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Not overpowered? Yes, it is! Like it was mentioned before, you can make them so overpowered with the skills. Not needed.

Malice Black · Jan 04, 2007, 04:41 PM // 16:41

School must be out..don't like the topic don't post.

unienaule · Jan 04, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I'm looking into getting some face torn off, and if anyone posts another picture with some stupid @*$$ argument that it's the only way to get through, I GUARANTEE a ban coming your way. Not that you might not anyway.

beanerman_99 · Jan 04, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Unienaule- Thank you very much for deleting those pics. While funny, they were completely hijacking this thread and it was very rude of the Guru community to be so disrespectful to another persons thread and his/hers ideas. Shame to see it really.

Back on topic--I think the OP has his reasons for wanting 7 heroes and there has been plenty people here to post good reasons why this just can't/shouldn't/won't be implemented. Every one is free to have their own opinions

OP- On you main point about the Titans Quests in Tyria...I completely agree with your frustration of not being able to find PUGs to do this and I REALLY hate that I cannot use henches either. I have tried to do the last one with my ele and 3 heroes but it failed badly when I hit the mobs of Charr. Maybe I had the wrong builds set up, I am not sure.

But with the severe limitation of only having 4 people in your party I don't see how I will be able to complete this quest. My only other option would be to run all the way from ToA with a full party of 8 and some lvl 15 henches....that doesn't sound too appealing. Yaks Bend is out cause the henches are even lower level there.

So my only other option is to hope that someday I will hook up with real players and complete it.

I will get flamed horribly for saying this but.....I would like to have either 7 heroes or at least level 20 henchs to be able to go into the Fissure of Woe, the Underworld and other elite zones so that I can take my time and explore these areas at my leasure. I understand the reasons why we can't take in henches, but it would be nice for people like me who like to explore every nook and cranny of the map and do some sight seeing, and don't like to do this with PUGs because people will either leave, yell at you for being slow, not want to take the path you do, will boss you around and tell you what build to bring and how to play, etc. Sometimes soloing with heros/henchs is better

Enchanted Warrior · Jan 04, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Folks it's real simple. If they (GW/Anet) see that it will boost sales and/or increase profits from future sales, it will be added (the ability to play 7 heroes). And no amount of whining, complaining, or flaming will change that. It's the golden rule, the ones with the gold make the rules. And to be honest if it's only PVE why does anyone care if they do add it? Sillyness to the extreme if you ask me.

Mr_T_bot · Jan 04, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

It isn't just the Titan quests, those are just the pinnacle. No PuG's want to do quests, except the handful of quests required for game progression. Otherwise you are on your own. In addition, PuGs do not want to explore.

Jetdoc · Jan 04, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_T_bot

Yes, I am. The number of people in an area dwindle a short while after a game is released. There are no fewer people to PuG than there would be because people either wouldn't play or would use henchmen anyway.

Are you being sardonic?

Yes, the continuing expansion of Guild Wars universe does contribute to the decreasing availability of PuGs.

However, to state that the only people that are using heroes are those that solely used henchmen in the past is way overreaching. I personally know several guildmates who used to either PuG or participate with guild members in missions and quests that have now refused to do so solely due to the introduction of heroes. There are many more people out there that continue to PuG (sometimes with some hero counterparts) that would simply stop PuGing all together if 7 heroes were allowed.

I in absolutely no way was being sardonic in my previous post - it sounded like, from your post, that you believed that it was almost impossible to advance in the campaigns without having 7 heroes. I completely disagree with that, as would many who completed the game utilizing 3 heroes and 4 henchmen.

By the way, referring to the Titan quests...there are many of us that have completed The Last Day Dawns and Defend Denravi either solo or with a 4 person PuG. I find it very hard to fathom that those quests are not completable with a 1 person/3 hero group. Defend North Kryta Province, however, is another story - but I do see PuGs regularly forming in Temple of Ages for that quest.

Jetdoc · Jan 04, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

I'm looking into getting some face torn off, and if anyone posts another picture with some stupid @*$$ argument that it's the only way to get through, I GUARANTEE a ban coming your way. Not that you might not anyway.

Shouldn't this post be moved to the Sardelac Sanitarium, because it is a game suggestion?

unienaule · Jan 04, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

This isn't a suggestion, it's more of a discussion, and you doubleposted. Side note that nobody cares about: Thank goodness we're off page 5 now because in addition to the 20 posts I see the 47 deleted ones so it takes forever to load it. And in case you're wondering if I actually counted, no, it counts them for me.

Addendum: Just because your name is Mr_T_Bot doesn't mean you can tell people to shut up because their playstyle is different. If you don't want to hear someone else's views, then don't read this thread. Simple, really.

gene terrodon · Jan 04, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

I really am at a loss. People continue to post that PUGs are readily available. THEY ARE NOT. Even during peak times, it is hard to find people to do anything with, unless you are in one of the tougher mission outpost. The bottom line is that PUGs are becoming more and more rare.

Mr. T_Bot...A point of correction...1st, my guild is not large and mostly coordinate for elite missions and boss farming...2nd, my friends list consist of my brother and random people I sold stuff to in Guru auctions.
You just assume all I play with is guildies and friends, but I have heard that fools assume.
Furthermore, I do not expect and don't look for pugs to do quests. Typically, I'll go with guildies, but, unlike most of the community, I am not above going with a PUG to help. Not that I don't like questing with PUGs, it's just that questing PUGs virtually don't exist.

Also, your contention that limited Pugging has been a problem for a year is not correct, at all. When factions first was released, it was not unusual to to find questing Pugs and aside from unwaking waters, mission pugs were always readily available. The only problem was the shortage of monks. Same holds true for Prophecies. In game now, getting a Pug for any mission in any campaign is a bear. They are hard to find. Just the other day, I was in an outpost with about 12 other people. Each and every one of them had themselves, 3 heroes and 4 henches.